KAMFA OR Zhen Zhu?

WHY?

2 question only. please state out in detail why you pick Zhen Zhu or KAMFA.

Look like white eye Zhen Zhu.
I also seen blue Eye Zhen Zhu.
My guess is Zhen Zhu

Details
Eyes bulge out like most Zhen Zhu types.
Mouth bottom is long sticking out like Zhen Zhu.
Body Long and back is arched like Zhen Zhu.
Dorsal fins thin and long like Zhen Zhu
Tail is nice like Classic Zhen Zhu type but looks like thin type and not hard type like kamfa.

Only thing is white eyes that is uncommon in Zhen Zhu.
But Ive seen Blue eye and white eye Zhen Zhu before.
So Zhen Zhu is my conclusion.

This post has been edited by james: May 22 2008, 03:44 AM

I think this one is Zhen Zhu why??Are the eyes white or orange bro??Maybe you can provided better pics if the eyes kinda orange then I will call it Zhen Zhu but if the eyes totally 100% white then I will say it's a kamfa even all the feature are Zhen Zhu. That's my oppinion maybe the others can helps!Thanks and GBU

best regards,
jonz88

I agree with James and Jonz, I say Zhen Zhu because it shows more Zhen Zhu traits. This fish was likely created by crossing a Zhen Zhu with the offspring between a Zhen Zhu and parrot.

I say Zhen Zhu because the long lower jaw, fins and tail are too small and long, he's got the color and patterns of a Zhen Zhu, and the eyes look like they are kind of orange from that angle but white also so maybe it's just the angle of it. I still say Zhen Zhu.

It's a very good question. This fish has all Zhen Zhu traits, except his white eyes. If he has %100 white eyes, I would go with Kamfa.

Excellent analysis James. With just white eyes, it can't qualify as a kamfa. I'm with Simon there. It's got parrot blood in it.

sorry guys. this is not my fish

i dont have another picture.

just for argumentation, lets say that this fish has 100% white eye.

is it still called Zhen Zhu?

This post has been edited by ronnie: May 22 2008, 06:03 PM

According to some rules,
It really depends on the percentage of characteristics that determine whether it is a certain type of strain/category.
So with that, white eyes on that fish would represent a 10% which should not be considered a kamfa.
But this can be debated also because there is no certified rules from any Cichlid Associations or Organizations.
That is why I believe it is so important that one day, Flowerhorns will have there own Associations internationally
and officially recognized by majority %. Which means, as long as a more than 50% percent of the flowerhorn world agree and recognize this group of people as truthworthy and good, then they can have the rights to establish the differents rules and regulations in regards to flowerhorn and its industry. Anyone up for a non profit International Flowerhorn Association? That is the next step.

Simon's International Association of Flowerhorn Judging would classify this fish as a Zhen Zhu even if it had 100% white eyes! Even if some Asian rules might classify it as a Kamfa, I would say it has a predominantly Zhen Zhu phenotype. Just my 2 cents.

haha, That was a good one Simon.

I agree with Bro Jonz on this one. If 100% white, Kamfa. If yellowish or reddish... Zhen Zhu.

My newbie opinion also

I can say that base on my experience in Indo Competition that sum fish has Zhen Zhu traits and can participated in kamfa categories, and I don't know guys but kamfa with RED, ORANGE, WHITE, or CREAM eyes is common but basiclly Zhen Zhu eyes color are red, orange or maybe the orange kinda plain but never saw any white eyes Zhen Zhu excepted dead Zhen Zhu like bro Naminator said. It's just my 2 cent and looks like this can be good discussion....waiting for other broda at ORG to leave sum reply!!Thanks and GBU

best regards,
jonz88

Well, certainly this fish is uncommon. We'd never seen a Zhen Zhu with white eyes in the past, but there's always the first time for everything. For me not knowing anything about the rules for classifying FHs in competitions, just basing on the traits, if a fish portraits 51% of characteristics of category A, then that fish belongs to category A. That's just my personal opinion, for common things in life - "majority wins". But if you have predetermined rules (for example - in competitions), then stick to your rules, until those rules are modified and approved.

Just my 2cents. Cheers!

Love to learn couple new things specially with many new people that has the same passion, when I try to tell this fish kamfa or a Zhen Zhu actually not using any based of competition rules since at Indonesia the rules basicly are apply for finding a great fish in each categories nothing was writen to clasify the fish traits. For example "Fish eyes color" doesn't get any points and if in kamfa categories ur kamfa fish eye are red and better in competition then should be the winner if the white eyes one can't surpass the quality of your fish. T
hen if this kinda of breed is the future Zhen Zhu fish then I don't have anything to say since maybe I just don't open my eyes to see since I don't like to lived and stay in the past but for my own oppinion and will stand in my sand that tell if the eyes are 100% white then the fish are kamfa and each people has their own oppinion.
What I'm going to say back in my last reply that even the judge can't complain even all the traits are Zhen Zhu but the eyes are totaly 100% white and they don't have any rights to moved that fish into the Zhen Zhu categories like the rules said.

Just my 2 cents and cheers !!!

best regards,
jonz88

This is a good discussion to really share our experiences and opinions.

It has become common here in the Philippines that certain Flowerhorns with white eyes grow up to be Zhen Zhu looking fish. I maintain my opinion that if it has 100% white eyes, it would be a KF as I have yet to see a Zhen Zhu with white eyes. If it does compete, just like what bro Joz shared, there iare no points given to the color of the eyes. I have judged several flowerhorn competitions here and there are times I would see an flowerhorn outside its strain meaning entered under a wrong category in my opinion. What I do is judge the fish on the category it was entered in. At the end of the day, mis tagged flowerhorn will be at the cost of the competitor actually.

I am not saying my opinion is gospel truth and that is why I have always said I will always be a newbie and frequent flowerhorn sites as i believe there is so much to learn from this hobby.

I respect the opinions other than own and thanks those who went into detail explaining why their opinion differs as they might see something I didn't.

I believe that controversies such as these tell us that breeds are indeed getting better as traits from 2 different strains are now crossing and being combined.

It would be really great if more bros and sis will share what they think so all of us can learn more from each other.

GBU to all

Maybe we should start our own flowerhorn.org Classification Standards! We have enough knowledgeable people here to get it done. I would like to be part of the flowerhorn council which dictates categories. In doing this i think we should introduce new categories like ZZKF, ZZML ect. In this way we can allow for the introduction of new strains which take aspects from their parents which sets them apart from traditional classification. So what we can do is start of with out traditional strains. Zhen Zhu, KF, Golden Monkey, etc.

We will need to give write out own standards, for example

Zhen Zhu category:

Eyes: Red, orange, etc
Body: Triangular, long, curved back, etc
Tail: drop tail, fan tail, weak tail base, etc
Pearl type: ...
Flowerline: ...
Dorsal and anal fins type: ...

we will have to reestablish the traditional standards for the original categories, and then establish what traits the new categories need to encompass. As flowerhorns evolve we can be able to classify them. Breeders can produce fish by these standards and also fall out of standards to create new strains.

We have a lot of work ahead of us with comprehensive tools like pictures and maybe even powerpoint layouts.

This post has been edited by TheManaguenseManiac317: May 24 2008, 12:39 PM

hmmmm...... ahhhh..... let's see...oh it's a...well......its a....KamZhu cross with a ZhenFa but....... !!

This post has been edited by myflowerhorny: Jun 5 2008, 04:24 AM

everything looks Zhen Zhu to me except the eyes, and the kok appears different aswell, id say ZzxKamfa

I still say its kamfa mix with Zhen Zhu blood